Can I Offer You Some Feedback? - Episode #15

Show Notes:

Feedback can be a gift that keeps on giving. Our guest Aviva tells us how she sees feedback as art. When someone wants to share an observation it would be a missed opportunity to let it trigger instant vulnerability. Being retrospective can allow this type of exchange to be empowering for thinking about improvement. Subscribe to this podcast today and so you never miss an episode! 

Episode #15: Giving the Gift of Feedback

Sara: Welcome to, Can I Offer You Some Feedback? My name is Sara, and this is the podcast for those who have a complicated relationship with feedback and are looking to hear from real people across levels and industries with their ideas, perspectives, and best practices on feedback. Before we dive in, I'd like to introduce our guest on the podcast today, Aviva. She's a healthcare strategist and networking extraordinaire. Welcome to the conversation today. 

Aviva: Thank you, Sara. 

Sara: So let's kick things off with the main question of the podcast. When I say the phrase, "can I offer you some feedback?" What's your gut reaction when you hear that? 

Aviva: It's natural to be nervous. When a colleague or a friend wants to share an observation, especially if it's not in a prescheduled context, like a regular stop, start, continue feedback session, or a performance review, for me, that just triggers instant vulnerability. Early in my career, my instinct was like flight or fight. Like I'm ready to like do battle or I'm out of here. And then I think as I've matured in my career and in building more meaningful relationships that are deeper, both in my personal and professional life I see feedback as a huge gift, especially when it's given with the intention of growth. So if that fight or flight response kicks in, I now like take a deep breath and I focus on the person who's actually taking the time, their own valuable time to be thoughtful and to help me grow. 

And so my immediate response is now thank you. Then I do a gut check and I think about, "Is this a good time for me to hear what they have to say?" Because sometimes you're doing a thousand things or sometimes you've had a really bad day or something has happened in your personal or your professional life that day that you're just not in a good space to hear, reflect, and grow. And so in order to take advantage of the immediacy of that request, because sometimes it takes guts for somebody to ask you, "Can I offer you that feedback?" And be vulnerable themselves and putting themselves out there. I ask if we can set up time later that day or first thing the next morning so we don't lose that immediacy, but that I explain that I really want to be fully present to hear that feedback because I value the individual, I value their thoughts, and I want to grow. And generally that's taken really positive way. So earlier in my career, definitely a fight or flight and now I'm able to be a bit more retrospective, say thank you, and take it as the gift that it truly is. 

Sara: Yeah. I love that you're bringing up the recognition that you know yourself and the importance of the timing and how you want to be ready for that feedback. And it could just be that in that moment it's not the best time. And I think often people don't think of that. They're like, okay, just get it over with rather than, how can I ensure that this is the best time for both of us? Because you've prepared for this conversation and I want to be ready to receive it. So I love that you're asking that other person if, you know, I want to hear it, please do not say it, but can we save a little bit of time more so I can process it or can we do it a little bit later? I love that you have that awareness about yourself and the relationship with that other person to do that. When you're thinking about that feedback, and you kind of touched on this a bit, do you prefer to give feedback or receive feedback? 

Aviva: Good question. I love both roles. I think that being the receiver of feedback is again just a gift. So selfishly, I really appreciate when people give me the chance to learn and to grow. I think especially as I have gotten the opportunity to rise into higher-level leadership roles in my career, that feedback from my peers particularly is such a gift. But also from the people that I manage. Because I think we all have ways to improve our management styles and to individualize our styles for that person. So I find that to be a huge gift. But I think sharing feedback is a real art. It is not a science. Although there is a lot of literature about the science of it. The best feedback that I've received are like totally opposite spectrums, like leaders who were just totally not emotionally intelligent and were just super blunt and direct. But it was sort of like a cold bucket of water. I was like, "Okay, what am I supposed to do with that?" But it really made me think. And then leaders who also acted as mentors and coaches who helped incorporate their feedback and held me accountable. So I think that there are some great things about both giving and receiving. And it's important to just remember to specialize it to the individual, including maybe like asking somebody if you work with them regularly like, "How do you prefer to receive feedback? Do you want auditory feedback? Do you want written feedback?" I work at a startup and that is part of our culture, is that we ask people when they start, how do you want to receive feedback? So that we can then tailor the feedback to them in a way that they learn best. 

Sara: I like that. You know, asking that preference up front, but also appreciating that it might change depending on the nature of it. And so I think there's an opportunity to also check in with that person depending on that moment. And I'm again hearing timing, I'm hearing setting, I'm hearing method also as a part of thinking about how that feedback is delivered. 

Aviva: I think Sara, also just in follow up to that, it's also asking that person like, "You said you wanted to have auditory feedback and have a face-to-face conversation," but a couple of weeks later if you've had a really critical conversation or a crucial conversation, maybe it's about saying, "how do you think that feedback session went? And is there a way that we want to improve this or that would work for you better?" Because sometimes the way that people anticipate that they want that feedback is not actually the way they want that feedback. 

Sara: Right. And I think there's a part of like, I think I'm supposed to say it this way until it actually happens, and then you're like, no, I don't like it this way. I actually wanted a completely different way. 

Aviva: Absolutely.

Sara: I'm wondering if you can touch a little bit on how you think about, and you've been kind of around this, the idea of meaningful feedback. What makes it meaningful for you or how do you think about that as a term? 

Aviva: Sure. So I've heard some of your other podcasts' guests allude to this. But I think actionable feedback is really critical. Timely feedback. There's this like historic culture, especially in large corporate culture, I haven't always worked at a startup. This is actually my first. So where you wait until that quarterly performance review or that annual performance review to provide feedback. And frankly, at that point, the time has passed. So I think getting out in front of it and being very timely to say the same day or the next day, that is where the most meaningful feedback can occur and people can course correct and kind of apply. 

I was in San Francisco last week at a customer meeting. And we had an all-day meeting and then a dinner. And that morning because it was California time and I'm based here in Chicago, I woke up early and I used that time to actually leave voice notes for each member of my team on Slack and say, "Hey, you guys did really great with these things. These are the areas of opportunity for you to work on. Here are some body language tips in the way that you interact with some people in the room. Here are some tips related to the presentation style or the points that we made. And overall, great job, but here are some things that you can adjust today." And that day I don't think there was one thing that I had shared with them that they did not incorporate. Because it was meaningful, it was timely, and it was given in a way that was meant to improve growth. So I was just really proud of them. 

I think the last piece of meaningful feedback for me is like choosing your moment. So I share that story to share also that I did not ask the team, we gathered for breakfast at 7:00 A.M. that morning. So I could have shared feedback with them in a group setting, but I wanted to leave an individual voice note for each of them so that they could hear the intonation of my voice. It was very early in the morning, so I didn't want to have that conversation at 5:00 A.M. or whatever time I woke up California time. But I wanted them to hear the intonation of my voice and I didn't want to do it in front of their peers. I wanted them to be able to reflect on the feedback in their own time and take on what worked for them. And part of that was leveraging a little bit of humor or when we actually gathered and one of them had a question, I said, "Well, why don't we practice it?" So can we use humor to like adopt change? 

Sara: Yeah. It sounds like you've incorporated a lot of different strategies when you're thinking about how you do that meaningful feedback. I'm wondering if you can share an experience where you've seen it, right? You've been either observing it or maybe the recipient of it, which has maybe helped in that behavior now that you're modeling as well. 

Aviva: Yeah, that's a good question. Okay. One of the experiences where I've seen that delivered really well was in a stop, start, continue recently that I had with one of my leaders. And her name is Carolyn. I'll just call her out because I'm going to be very complimentary here. But I had joined Cured, our startup about six months prior. We had like a regular stop, start, continue session and she said to me, "Aviva, I think you need to stop feeling that sense of imposter syndrome and I want you to start reading your resume every morning." And I was really taken aback because I didn't feel like I had imposter syndrome, but I was now sitting in this like very small startup and I was looking around being like, "Who makes this decision?" They were like, "You do." And I had come from these massive organizations at Cleveland Clinic or at Healthcare Service Corporation, which is a massive member-owned health insurance company. And so I was used to looking around and saying, hey, there are people with 20 years more experience than I do that make these decisions or that have the C-Suite title in their title. So it was something where I joined this organization and I was like, okay, I have the experience and I have a voice and I have a perspective, but is it appropriate for me to share? I was used to a bit more bureaucratic red tape. And it was really empowering to hear that feedback. But it was done in such a thoughtful kind way that she also in that conversation highlighted some really great contributions I had made to the team, highlighted some of the things that she really wanted me to continue doing and some things that she wanted me to start to pick up doing to show my expertise that it felt so empowering to me and was just a great growth opportunity. I recently also, if we have time for a second example I'll share another one. 

Sara: Yeah, absolutely. 

Aviva: So this happened last week. And to me, it highlighted the importance of being mindful of generational differences in sharing feedback. And also just generational differences, period. At the startup I work at, I work with a number of 20-somethings, but I also team members with many more years of experience that are my seniors in age. And we were sitting at a dinner with a customer and they said something like... They were telling a story about how they saw Mario Lopez of Saved by the Bell fame, I didn't think that was going to come up on this podcast, but...

Sara: Listen, there's always time for Saved by the Bell. 

Aviva: So at a party in LA and she was just recounting this funny story. And it was very clear that half the table did not know who Mario Lopez was or what Saved by the Bell was as a reference point. And half the table definitely did. And later in the conversation, somebody was talking about seeing a band and it was very clear that like half the table knew and half the table did not know. So there were some like music movie references, TV references, just cultural references that were very generational in nature. And later that night I was in an Uber with one of my team members and they said something to me like, "I felt really uncomfortable not knowing these references and it made me feel very left out of the conversation. And so I just want to provide some feedback that if it's possible for us to navigate these conversations a little differently, more neutral ground, that might be helpful." 

And so I actually mentioned it to an older team member of mine. I said, "Sometimes when you bring up these cultural references our younger team members feel a little bit like you're highlighting their lack of experience in years, or that you might be like singling out that generational difference." And I think this is where talking through generational differences is really important because they said, "Oh, I use that to actually be humorous because I'm sort of tongue in cheek poking fun at my age because I feel so differently in this group than I ever have at other organizations where there may be a more diverse spread of ages or more people around my age. But it was very interesting because the feedback approach that the 20-something wanted or 20-something actually came to me with was, "This is the way that I approach this conversation and I felt very much uncomfortable." Like they talked about it from a feeling’s perspective. 

And the more experienced member of our team came at it from a, "Yeah, I also felt a little weird, but I'm just sort of like sloughing it off." But also I wouldn't want anyone to feel uncomfortable, but let's talk about this from like a practical perspective or a tactical perspective, right? Whereas the younger individual really wanted to talk about it from a feeling’s perspective like, how did it make me feel, and wanted that acknowledgment around the feeling, whereas the older individual wanted the acknowledgment around, tactically like, what did you want me to do here? And so I'm not actually familiar with the research on some of the generational differences in giving and receiving feedback, but I think it would be a very interesting area of inquiry and something I'd like to do a little bit more learning around in order to be a better manager and better colleague. 

Sara: Yeah. And it's interesting you were able to pick up that different approach and even the simple difference of addressing it in public, doing it in private centering their own experience thinking about, well, that happened to me many times. You know, it can be like any situation different to hear the other side's perspective, right? The person who was sharing it thought the joke was on them, and instead, there was no joke. And it brought up some other emotions for the other person. So I really like that example. Thank you for sharing the second example. 

Aviva: Sure. 

Sara: Thinking about that, I want to have a second to last question. 

Aviva: Sure.

Sara: If you had a wish for people to do one thing better regarding feedback, what might it be? 

Aviva: I think it would be to take that moment and breathe before you deliver feedback or before you receive feedback. Think about the space that you're in and if you're ready to hear it or if you're ready to give it. I gave someone feedback two or three weeks ago. And they were not in a place to hear it. And I knew that but I didn't stop and pause. Like I knew it in the back of my brain that they had a family situation and I did not realize when she said, "Sure, I'm ready to hear that." I did not realize that I needed to be extra careful. Because I was about to deliver some feedback that they felt like they were doing a really phenomenal job and it was a really important part of their role. And I was saying maybe we don't need to focus so heavily on that part of your role. And so I think taking that breath would've allowed me to avoid a tear-filled situation. And so from my perspective, I think the biggest thing that people can do with feedback is to just take a moment and assess, am I really ready to hear it? And am I in a really great place to give it? And am I going in with the right intention? Which is to help the other individual grow. 

Sara: Excellent. For our last question in this time together, Aviva, can I offer you some feedback? 

Aviva: Yeah, I'd love some feedback, Sara. 

Sara: Well, Aviva, something that I've observed, and you actually brought it up in your most recent example, I find you to be someone who is incredibly spacious and has deliberate pacing with the feedback you provide. I often find myself slowing down in our conversations and really taking in the conversation that's occurring. The second thing that I think you do really well, and I've definitely been a recipient of it is what I call a progressive push. You give people space. However, if you feel that there might be an opportunity they're missing or something that they're not really hearing, you do a gentle push, and then that push gets a little firmer and then a little firmer if they're not hearing what it is that they need to hear. And I think you do it in such a gentle way that doesn't feel like a push. But then after the fact, when I'm thinking about our conversation, I'm like, man, Aviva's really letting me know what I needed to hear in that moment. So I'm very grateful for that, and I'd love to see you do that more, and I hope that you do that more with others and not just with me. But I'm very grateful to kind of have that style of feedback in my life. So thank you for that. 

Aviva: Thank you, Sara. Our friendship and our professional collaboration have been one of the gifts of my life, so I very much appreciate that feedback and I want to say thank you. 

Sara: Yeah. Well, Aviva, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me, and thanks to you for joining us for another episode of Can I Offer You Some Feedback? You can reach me at podcast@mod.network. We would love to hear from you on your thoughts on feedback, or any other perspectives you'd like to hear from Next. As always, give us a quick rating on your platform of choice and share this podcast with a friend. And I'm hoping that tomorrow you take a chance and offer feedback where it's needed most.