Can I Offer You Some Feedback? - Episode #29

Show Notes:

This week on the podcast, Sara brings on Isaac, a public health leader focused on DEI integration. They discuss the importance of practicing how to give feedback. It’s challenging to be aware of other’s needs, demonstrate empathy, and integrate trauma-informed care into the feedback process. Subscribe to this podcast today and so you never miss an episode! 

Episode #29: Integrating Trauma-Informed Care into Feedback

Sara: Welcome to, Can I Offer You Some feedback? My name is Sara. And this is the podcast for those who have a complicated relationship with feedback and are looking to hear from real people across levels and industries with their ideas, perspectives, and best practices on feedback. Before we dive in, I'd like to introduce our guest for the podcast today, Isaac. He's a public health leader focused on DEI integration. Welcome to the conversation today. 

Isaac: Hi. 

Sara: Well, let's kick things off with the main question of the podcast. When I say the phrase, 'can I offer you some feedback?' What's your gut reaction when you hear that?

Isaac: I think the initial reaction is always that gut feeling of something is always wrong. I think it's sad that we get there immediately. Feedback is so important in our lives. If we want to succeed or do better, we have to be very careful on how we address it right away. Even that initial like, can I offer you some feedback? It really would have to intone what the person is saying, their voice, how they're looking at you. I think through texts it's even worse or even email. Because if you see that initial line, you'd have no idea how they're saying it, what they're trying to say. So misinterpretation can happen a lot within that point. 

Sara: And it's an interesting mix. All of the different layers that come up with that, but in the end, it's asking consent to proceed, which inherently isn't a bad thing, but our mind immediately goes there. Of like, "No, I don't want it. I've had a bad experience before with that."

Isaac: Yeah. And this is probably going to be a weird tie-in, but actually, it might be helpful for those who think about this as they have never talked about this as trauma-informed care. So when you think about trauma-informed care, there are people who have gone through very traumatic events at their workplace. If you talk about toxic workplaces, I have a staff member who I need to be very careful because their previous work has really hurt them. And so when I am going to address them about feedback or change, I have to ease it in. I can't just come in directly and say. There are staffs that I know they're good for it. But applying that knowledge base has been helpful for me to understand what that person is going through and then being able to say, all right, I have to be careful with this. And that built confidence with that person as a staff member and feeling like they can trust me and understand that if I'm giving them feedback, it's for their benefit. It's not to hurt or harm them. 

Sara: Right. And I love that you're tying that in, thinking about how for many people it has not been safe. There are more toxic places that I know of than untoxic places and so having that conversation with your team to understand that is helpful. When you're thinking about feedback, do you prefer to be the giver or the receiver of feedback? 

Isaac: This one was a mixed answer for me because I honestly like both. Not so much because I've always gotten the best feedback, but because the feedback that I have received when I needed it has helped me to improve in my career as a person and taking that time to settle in with the information. Because sometimes you receive the information and you need a moment to kind of know on it and say, okay, I'm digesting it. I understand what this person was saying, what they were meaning behind it. So, I like them both. 

The other thing too is practicing how to give feedback. Because it's easy to tell somebody what they need to fix, but it's hard to be aware of their needs, being empathetic, having that trauma-informed care, and then also even thinking about how can I help them succeed with this information. Those are some of the balancing acts. And it does take practice for you to be good at feedback. There's a quote and it's so funny. And I've heard it I can't remember where, but it takes a minute to learn and a lifetime to perfect. So, sometimes there are things that it takes a minute to learn it. You're like, "Oh, I got it down packed. I learned this new software. I learned this new mechanism. I learned how to do this. I went to training, I understand it." But to actually make it to the point where you just naturally flow with it, it takes a lifetime of practice. 

And so you can't just be on one end. So you have to know how to receive it in the receiving end so that way you have that experience of saying, I understand what it feels like to receive feedback and then being able to practice how to give feedback. And then how the person who's receiving the feedback, how their reactions are. And then you can read through their body languages, how they respond afterwards and just seeing it through your own eyes on that perspective. 

Sara: Yeah. And I think a lot of times, competency development, maybe from an indirect harmful perspective, I often have people who think that learning new skills is something that happens quickly. And I have to remind them they're not neo from the matrix and I can't just download the skill into their brain. You know, cinema reference. But you know, think about it. Every movie that has superheroes or some individual that goes through a transformation, it's done as a cutscene. That whole learning and competency skill development is done in 15, 30 seconds, right? And we know that it takes longer, but we get trained to think this is fast. And it's not. It takes a really long time to get better at that. I'm curious for you, Isaac, how do you define or how do you think about meaningful feedback? 

Isaac: I think meaningful feedback should definitely be something that has to tie in with the end goal. I hate when problems are being pointed at without a solution. Even if it's a silly solution, a big solution, I always tell this to my staff. When they say, "This is a problem." I always turn it back and say, "So what's the solution?" "Well, I don't know." And then I'm like, "Okay, so that's something that I want you to think about because you're telling me what the problem is and I have to then think up through on the quick solutions. And there are times that I might be super busy. There's so much going on. And I need time to think about this. And I need you to start thinking a step ahead. I don't want you to feel like you're alone in the process, but I want you to start thinking of solutions instead of just saying this has to be fixed."

So I feel like when we talk about feedback, are we giving good solutions that people can handle that fits the person? So, we look at an equity standpoint. So, does this really fit the individual and how they need it? Let's say you have a staff member who has ADHD or they have any other type of mental health barrier in the workplace. And so I need to make sure that if I tell them, "Oh, this is simple here. You are not doing this right, so this is what you're going to do now." But that might not fit that person. 

So I have to think of solutions that are actually going to fit the need of the person. Inequity, I can't treat every person equally. I have to treat everybody in an equitable standpoint. So what might work for one person might not work for the other. And I have to give them space to evolve in the process, giving them a timeline, making sure that they understand how to do the processes. But I can't just tell them, this is what you're going to do. This is how you're going to do it. And that's the end. 

I think that if someone is going to give me feedback too, as well, they need to give me a solution, not just tell me, "Hey, this is a problem." And you shouldn't do that. Then I'm like, "So what am I supposed to do next?" And they're like, "I don't know." That's exactly how I feel. I don't know either. So that hasn't been beneficial feedback. Now in my head, I just have another person finger-pointing at the same problem that I already know that's there. 

Sara: Yeah. And typically folks who have taken the time to bring up the problem have a solution in mind because you have to sit with it a bit before you bring it up but maybe the space is not safe to bring it up. Or maybe they don't have confidence in it. Or maybe they know it has some holes. So they haven't figured that out or they don't feel it's their role to do that. But there's a lot in that. And I like the connection that you're tying in around that the equity is not one size fits all. Just as our style as well leading, as our styles, where including others is different depending on that person. I'm wondering if you can share an example or an experience where you have seen or experienced that meaningful feedback delivered.

Isaac: I will say one experience that I had. And it was a real kind of heart-to-heart conversation that I had with a previous boss of mine. And it was about time management. And it wasn't that I wasn't doing my work. It was just that I was overwhelming myself with all these things that were coming in. And I needed to take a step back and say, no, this is not the time for me to do this project. Or I have to be the person to be okay with saying no. Because I have such a hard time saying no to things. And so when there's very little support for people, especially in DEI work, and they want help and support, and you're thinking, well, I feel bad that they're going to be alone. And really, this is my responsibility, but not understanding that the job is more than what you can take. 

And so I had to take a step back because it was affecting other work. And so being able to juggle all that, it was a conversation about thinking of different methods. We had conversations about books that I can get. What are some things that I can implement? And we went through it several times. And it was so helpful for me to be a little bit more mindful on what I needed to do to take care of myself and then also have that time management skill. So that was one that was a few years ago where that really was helpful. And I appreciate it that we went through a process. They never told me, this is how I do it and you need to do it this way. They wanted to figure out, what do you need to make you successful.

Sara: That's so powerful because it's not just, do this because it worked. It's, let's actually build the habit. Let's figure out a system that would work for you, which takes longer. It's going to take longer, but it's going to last. It has to be something that feels authentic for you. And that does not come just like, poof on a Tuesday. You had a vision and look, this is how you're going to do it. Sometimes that happens, but it's more rare. But thinking about your manager making the choice to invest the time in the long game of how do I support this person's growth and this person's development of a model that will work for them, not just in this job, but in the next one and the one after that and whatever they choose to do with their career, which is a true investment of time. 

Isaac: Yeah. I say the same thing to my staff whenever they learn something new. I say I hope that I'm teaching you something that's going to be beneficial wherever you go. So, instead of looking at it as how my boss is now talking to me about doing this thing that I need to learn and do better, I get them prepared. I say at the end of the day, I just want you to feel like you can be successful wherever you go. The one thing I don't want to hear is if a job opportunity comes, you enter that space, and you're like, well, I never actually learned this. And no one has ever helped me with this. And no one ever pointed something out to me. 

And when I hear that from them saying, no one has ever talked to me about this. And I've been doing this for two, three years and no one has ever said that this is something that could be a barrier or an issue. And then for me, it's kind of heartbreaking because I'm like they just needed support and being able to figure things out because they didn't know it was a problem or it was an issue. And then all of a sudden it's like, "Oh, I didn't even realize that. Why didn't anybody tell me?" So then they start thinking about all the previous people who were there that didn't say anything to them. And so you might not have all the answers, but those little things, if you know something, you need to have those conversations. It's good to be able to be there for them in that sense. 

Sara: Yeah. It's like the supportive version of, see something, say something. 

Isaac: Yes. 

Sara: In a different context. 

Isaac: Yeah. 

Sara: If I was in the business of wish-giving, what's something that you wish people could do better? Maybe one thing they could do better regarding feedback. What would it be? 

Isaac: I think biases are an issue sometimes. There are things that people want to give feedback on and I've experienced that as well, where there was an issue a while back where they tried to tell me that something was wrong. And then it was really a bias that was happening. And when I pointed out the bias and the issue, there was this whole face of ouch. And the person had to come to a moment of saying, "Wow, I didn't even realize I was falling into that trap. Because someone said something. This person said this and I automatically wanted to talk to you about it." 

And then I had to give feedback on that's a bias and that is a concern. And I don't think we should be seeing it that way because this and this actually happened. And this is what happened. When I explained my point of view of what the whole situation was, everything came into light of like, "Oh, well, that's not what I was told." And so I think when people get training on cultural diversity, it's not so much about understanding communities of what you're going to serve. Those are your staff members as well that you have to work with. And there are different perspectives of culture that you need to understand before you go in and tell them, "Hey, you need to stop doing this or change this. And here's some feedback. And here's what you're going to do next," because there might be biases that you might have, something that might bother you. And then you don't even understand why that bothers you. 

So check yourself when it comes to that. You might not even realize that it's there, but everyone has those biases. Understanding cultural perspectives or minority communities how they work. You know, having that idea of understanding communities also affects the staff that you work with. So you really need to keep that in check and make sure that am I seeing something that's different? Even talk to your fellow colleagues that are at your same level. Talk to another staff member that's in another department that might understand the community and say, "Hey, I'm curious to understand this. And how do I address it, too?" Because if it is something that I need to address because it is affecting everyone, how do I address it in the appropriate way where it's not attacking that person's culture, but also figuring out how do we make a compromise? 

You have to have some honest validation in that moment with that person. Say, "You know what? I understand where you're coming from. I understand who you are as a person. And I want you to continue that. In the workspace, I need you to see that this is a problem. And this is an issue and so how can we fix that? Because it's going to be a concern." But you also have to understand the community that you're working with. 

Sara: Right. And connecting it to that impact, right? Like, I didn't know that this was holding me back. Or I didn't know that this could be perceived that way. And then understanding and being able to communicate that with other folks. I really appreciate you sharing that. And I think it does get missed, as you're saying. For the last question of our time together, Isaac, can I offer you some feedback? 

Isaac: Oh, yeah, definitely. 

Sara: I've just been buttering you up this whole time. One of the things, and we've had the opportunity to work in a professional context in a couple of different scenarios. And I have found one of the things that I've seen and I don't know if it's intentional on your part or not. You have an amazing ability to see through multiple systems at the same time as if there are multiple lenses that you have on all at the same time. And while that's true for many people, I think you have awareness of them that this is maybe with a public health mind. This is maybe with my clinical mind. This is maybe with my community mind. This is with my background. 

And it's not just if there are lenses that we see through, because again, if we have more awareness, but the fact that you see them and you're able to speak to them in different contexts, whether it's as a clinician, as someone who does public health, as someone who represents organizations, and the LGBT+ community, like thinking of all these different lenses that you operate through and being able to communicate really clearly for folks how you're shifting in between them. And I love that. And I view that as a model of how I want to be more explicit about the different lenses and the different ways that I'm operating and how to clarify that for other folks who don't have that awareness yet, but can see another model. 

So, I'm trying to emulate you in that. But I think that's really a skill that awareness is step one, but then I'm hearing you not only use it but then share with others how you're using it. And I think that that's really powerful for individuals to hear how it can actually show up in the work and how it influences the way you think, the way you approach something, the way you go about something. So I know I've been really appreciative of that. And I'm sure it comes up in other aspects, but I'd love to continue to see that and continue to have that as an example if we continue working. As we continue working together in our community. 

Isaac: You definitely will.

Sara: Isaac, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. And thanks to you for joining us in another episode of, Can I Offer You Some Feedback? You can reach me at podcast@mod.network. We would love to hear from you on your thoughts and feedback on any other perspectives you'd like to hear from next. As always, give us a quick rating on your platform of choice and share this podcast with a friend. And I'm hoping that tomorrow, you take a chance and offer some feedback when it's needed most.