Can I Offer You Some Feedback? - Episode #63

Show Notes:

This week Sara welcomes Amanda, she’s an executive director of an LGBT chamber of commerce. They talk about being open to a conversation of feedback that comes with uncertainty. Debriefing, decompressing and thinking of the language around getting to what needs to be said. How can we approach feedback? What skills are put into place to reach that space of meaningful feedback? Subscribe to this podcast today and so you never miss an episode! 

Episode #63: Encouraging and Acknowledging Feedback

Sara: Welcome to Can I offer you some feedback? My name is Sara, and this is the podcast for those who have a complicated relationship with feedback and are looking to hear from real people across levels and industries with their ideas, perspectives, and best practices on feedback. Before we dive in, I'd like to introduce our guest for the podcast today, Amanda. She's an executive director of an LGBT Chamber of Commerce. And I'd like to welcome you to the conversation today.

Amanda: I can't wait. I'm so excited. Thanks so much.

Sara: Excellent. Well, let's kick things off with the main question of the podcast. When I say the phrase, can I offer you some feedback? What's your gut reaction when you hear that?

Amanda: Aside from the fact of when I'm like, oh, Sara has a new podcast episode that just dropped. So, aside from that, I feel it in my stomach. It's like that stomach drop kind of like pee and your stomach, like, uh-oh. Even though I'm very open to feedback, you know, I'm not getting ahead of myself swimming in that water often, it still elicits that kind of physical response for me.

Sara: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I like the moment you said kind of like a gut drop. I was imagining the Tower of Terror or the mansion where the seats all drop. But it does feel like that in the stomach sometimes, especially when you get the question. When you're thinking about feedback then, do you prefer to be the giver or the receiver of feedback?

Amanda: Yeah, I think that it matters bit by bit or like in context. Of course, I think it's easier to be the provider of feedback and I find that I do that a lot in my various roles in my life. And also just thinking about why it feels like the bottom drops out from under you is because you're going into an unknown. Every single time you're receiving or giving, you're going into an unknown, very vulnerable place with yourself and with another person or people. Because sometimes we get that feedback in a group setting, you know?

Sara: Yeah. And I really appreciate that you've touched on the not knowing. Most people when there's uncertainty have some level of anxiety of not knowing how the situation is going to play out, how things are going to appear. And I'm curious, you mentioned you kind of spend a little bit more space in the giver position. How do you open the conversation when you're getting ready or hoping to give someone feedback?

Amanda: Yeah. So one thing that I try to do, and it's really shaped from bad experiences of receiving feedback is prep, right? Giving somebody a heads up as much as you can that you need to debrief about an event, an instance, you need to unpack something. I think that's really, really important.

I think creating time and space that works for both people. And it's not just space in a schedule, like having enough time while you're together. But for myself and for the other person or persons that I'm in the space with, what do I look like before? And I'm not running into a meeting or an obligation immediately afterwards so that there's space to decompress, really get curious, process, maybe shake off trauma, triggers, things that come up, and trying to think about the ways that whether it's in a workplace or in a family space that's provided.

It's harder sometimes in a family space if it's between an adult and a child, or even in other grownup relationships, but I try to do that. What's harder for me, but I'm learning about how to think about this is around jargon. I mean, even in some of the examples I said, you know, debrief, decompress, all that kind of stuff, sometimes it can get really jargony because it feels a little bit easier to use this kind of more roundabout language sometimes, or organizational kind of acronyms and jargon than just to say what really needs to be said, because we just don't know how to get there because it's an emotional space that we're going into even if it's in a structured organizational work environment.

Sara: Yeah. Yeah. And one of the words that I was kind of reflecting on is like, unpack, right?

Amanda: Mm-hmm.

Sara: And even unpack, we're obviously not unpacking, but there are lots of details in there which we want to pull on, we might want to explore, we might need to, now that it is unpacked, put in a different place or think about it in a different way.

And kind of the image that brought to mind as you were talking about that was, imagine if we unpacked our luggage just by like dumping it and what the impact would be versus taking the time to like put this here, put this here, this goes there, got to clean that, which is obviously what we would do if we had the luxury of time.

But as you said, I've had some managers that have tipped the suitcase and run, which is really not taking the time to do it in a more effective manner or more spacious manner for the other person to really get it.

Amanda: Right, exactly. And I think that's interesting. The analogy does work with unpacking in many ways too, because I feel like I've done a lot of traveling here recently and I feel like I have a box or a laundry basket from like two months ago, maybe two years ago that still has some of the last stuff that I traveled in or traveled with.

And so what's going to happen is that stuff, the incident, the misunderstanding, the growth, or whatever, if we're not careful, it's just going to get put into another container that's not its place. And it's going to get moved and swept around. It's going to get dusty. It's going to get covered up with stuff and then you're going to be confused when you find it all there again. And you're going to feel frustrated and shame and judge yourself for not unpacking properly or blame your other person. Yeah, so it kind of works that way too when you think about what the container is.

Sara: Yeah, we should, we should dig into that a little deeper to use some more jargon. But I like that connection that you're making to like where the feedback lives and where does it stay. As you're thinking about feedback, how do you start to define meaningful feedback?

Amanda: Yeah, I was thinking about this. And the first framework that comes to mind or that I go to is like Brené Brown's kind of her list around engaged feedback checklist, what that means, how to check in with when you're ready to give or receive feedback, and what makes it meaningful.

And then I think what makes it meaningful is often less of what's being said or somebody's point of view, or if you're correct, but really, hopefully, is that there's some kind of shared understanding that all parties involved in the process feel that they were able to share different points of view. And if not in that moment, that they have a pathway to come back around to it.

But then always about meaningful feedback, aside from like delivery and things of that nature, is that in that moment, again, because it's very vulnerable, people feel like, even if there's disagreeance or whatnot, that your innate human dignity is respected. No matter how hard it gets, that you still have a place and value within the process, the organization, the event, whatever it is. I think that that's critically important and meaningful.

You're always going to struggle with knowing whether or not you have a shared understanding of what just happened or what somebody's really saying. You're often going to have those times that can happen that can make the feedback less clear. Maybe still meaningful, but less clear. And I think that can be a struggle and it can get in the way of meaning-making and understanding happening.

But when I think about the engaged checklist, it's really thinking about ownership, owning my part, the other person hopefully owning or coming to understanding around theirs, avoiding shame and blame and feeling like failure or being able to have an imbalance of power and being able to overly criticize somebody. All those things undermine meaningful feedback, I think.

Sara: Yeah. And one of the things I think of with Brené's work is it sets the bar high but is forgiving in the same way. Like, remember to think about power, remember to think about engagement, remember to think about accountability and ownership, but also, you're going to mess up. And that's okay. And you're going to need to try a second time. And that's okay.

And I think that in that way, the way you're describing the feedback provided, how do we give it but also make space for, it may have been not the outcome we were looking for but... And then what? You know, seeing what's behind the, all right, sure, maybe this didn't go the way that we wanted, or maybe this didn't go the way we wanted. And now what do we take from that going forward?

Amanda: Right. I think that in all of it what's really important, what I hope is that I'm going to stay curious. And so that even in that process, if I'm initiating the feedback that's being given, that I'm also continuing to stay open and maybe I'm receiving some feedback too, or insights, information about myself, things I didn't know, help me retell the story as I understand it because there are multiple sides to any given experience, right?

Sara: Yeah. You know, could you provide an example of maybe either where you've seen meaningful feedback delivered or you've experienced it? Some instance where you knew, oh, okay, that's what it's supposed to be like.

Amanda: Yeah. That's a good question. I think that I had an experience a bit more recently where I was having to give some feedback. And what was really powerful for me in that moment was also hearing the other person's process about what happened from their framework, and then also their being able to say, well, this is something I could have used from you in that moment, right? And it didn't feel blaming. It didn't feel defensive. It just felt like this was something I would have expected or looking back, I needed more of this. And I think that that created a really beneficial feedback loop that was really helpful.

The other thing that, going into that, I was thinking about that I explored was if we need a break. So trying to lay the groundwork of, this is going to be tough. We have this much time set aside. We don't need to use all this time. We have more if we need. But also let's make sure that we check in with one another and we take breaks.

I think that that's really important to do also because if you are having to receive the feedback, if there's a power dynamic where somebody is more of a decision maker, your livelihood, your continuing on with the organization can feel like it's in their hands or it is in their hands, we don't always feel like we get the opportunity to walk away, to take a break, to go goose off from something. That can be seen as insubordinate, it can be seen as out of line, which is kind of bonkers if you really think about it.

A lot of times we need to walk away. It also gives us as the person maybe that's in that decision-making or needing to give feedback, even though we might have supposedly more power in that situation to also be vulnerable or not be seen as weak if we need to say, you know what, I need to take a moment with this.

I think that that's really powerful and important. I'm trying to think about ways to allow my children to do that more rather than forcing them to hear my point of view until we get done with it or recognizing that when there's a pushback or a body language that's really shut down that we literally just might need a break. You might need to go to the bathroom, you might need to get some water, you might just need to sit there in silence and not be seen as threatening or inappropriate.

Sara: And I think for a lot of people, especially when I'm like running over facilitation, folks' experience in a caregiving capacity reshapes how they think about leadership or how they think about leading teams, right? They can in the moment feel what demanding compliance is like and to expect how that appears and how that feels, or inviting collaboration or let's figure this out together, or let me teach you this. And for folks who have experienced that either as the caregiver, or as the one who's being cared for, it has a different relationship, of course, to being in the work setting, but they know the feel around it.

And so sometimes that comes up obviously situationally appropriate. But I like that you're kind of exploring it from that frame of how does this maybe change? Okay, how could I do this? What skill am I going to use? How am I going to approach this? So that we do have a collaborative relationship in this building, which happens to be our home, or the space in which we're operating.

Amanda: And as you were describing an instance more specifically where good feedback was given, and I'm sorry, I kind of forgot and then it came back through. I had a board member. We were having some drinks after the end of a conference, so a very social part, from learning conference, board member to executive director sitting there. It wasn't tricky, but they just asked me questions, and then we got to a place where they were giving me feedback. And I was like, "Oh, you brought me here very gently." Right? But it was about our board meetings, how they're going. And I was like, "Oh, you know, this and this and this." And then what happened, of course, was I asked them, "Well, what do you think?" And then they were able to give me the feedback.

So we ended up in this place, and knowing this person well, that was by design. So it was by design that it was comfortable, that it was safe. It wasn't a, can I give you some feedback, but it was, well, how do you think about this? So they were curious. They got me talking. And then, of course, I gave them the opportunity. I think they also would have found their opportunity to say, well, you know, from my point of view, here it is.

And it was really good. And some of it was feedback about the organization. Some of it was just perspective sharing from being a new board member. Other aspects of it were literally about the structure of a board report, flow of meeting, tone, how I sound or feel. That gave me new ways to see that it was undermining and getting in the way of what I was hoping that space for board meetings felt. So sorry, I had to come back around to that.

Sara: No, absolutely. And I love that you were like in the moment realizing like, Oh, I see what they're doing. Again, not in a manipulative way, but like, uh-huh, like a little light bulb and it's safe enough to continue the conversation. That's certainly the context.

Amanda: Yeah, it's effective communication.

Sara: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm curious, you're in a leadership position, obviously. When you're thinking about feedback, and you can think expansively about team, but how do you encourage or enable others to share feedback with each other?

Amanda: Yeah, I think that between colleagues is something I'm still figuring out in this current space because we're a very small organization. And in another role where I led an organization where I had a larger team of seven, because when it's just you and another person or you and two people, it can be small. It can sometimes be harder. You don't have the same people to process with the little bit of the way that other people sometimes can give more space.

But in that, one thing that can be hard is the consistency. What is the system for the check-in? Is it on this day? How do we show up fully? How do we stay consistent with what the meeting agenda is? Those kinds of team check-ins can be really important. And then I think another thing is, is if I'm hearing from a colleague that they're having a hard time with another person, where do you have agency to impact this change and provide this feedback or work on this relationship with them? Where do you feel you don't have agency? You feel disempowered, overwhelmed, scared, right? Where do you see I have the skills or the ability to support you in this? And where can I bring us all together or support you in communicating directly with the person, right?

So sometimes we're doing work behind the scenes and in between and going and listening to that person and whatnot. I think it's important to try to not do too much of that sometimes because it can turn into back-channeling, like as quickly as possible get it direct to people. Again, for people listening, I have a lot of kids and I'm raising or working with children across generations. It's like you need to go talk to your sister about that. You need to go talk directly to your sibling about that. Get people to communicate with each other as quickly as possible and have that role within there.

Similarly within our smaller group now, how I'm hoping that people feel they can give me feedback is that I try to share pretty often, regularly, where I am feeling that I'm falling short, where I'm overwhelmed in something, where I need some help. So part of that is managing expectations, giving people clear lanes by which they can manage up to me, clear lanes by which they can get the deliverables they need that are contingent upon their success.

At an emotional level, what I'm hoping it does is show that I could be a barrier to your success. I could get in the way of your success. I could get in the way of our success as an organization or us to completing this project. Just that I'm aware of that and to help people help me. So I'm hoping that that's what I do there and allow others to do that as well. Because then maybe if I'm sitting and I'm like, why is this thing not getting done, but we're modeling the way to say, I'm feeling really underwater with this. I'm not sure where to start. I'm having some paralysis. I'm feeling really unmotivated that those are okay things to say because then we can get in and fix it and we can row the boat together.

Sara: And I love that you're sharing about, not just transparency from the business side, but on your own experience of what's going on and acknowledging the both and that may be true in again, the different contexts. But I think that sometimes folks do the one and not the other. Or it may feel risky to do the both together. But I appreciate that you're sharing that. For our last question in our time together, Amanda, can I offer you some feedback?

Amanda: Yes, please.

Sara: So, one of the things, and we've had the opportunity to work together or work alongside each other in a couple of different contexts. But one of the things that I've been so appreciative of is, I've seen you provide either to me or to others an incredible amount of patience and time to educate, to explain in a way that's detailed, but not condescending, or pushing but not judging. And I think that that is a balance that sometimes people miss in how do I teach you this thing you don't know and I am appreciating that you've had the bravery to ask, but I need to educate you on X, Y, or Z, which I'm sure you're doing a lot during your day.

But I find that it is a shift in encouraging the other person's participation in their own education. And terms, I guess, from the space that I think about, for me, I've viewed it as the shift maybe from ally to accomplice. And I know we maybe not have used those words together, but it's a little bit more like, okay, now that I've taught you, what are you going to do about it? And again, not in an aggressive like, I demand. It's more of an invitation but with accountability.

And I've found that to be very kind of eye-opening and interesting and seeing myself or the others that I've witnessed you be around react to that invitation and the expectation as you were trying to say. So I wanted to kind of acknowledge that and share my appreciation and gratitude for that because I think it's something that really makes a difference in how you show up and communicate with others. So I wanted to say thank you for that.

Amanda: Oh, well, thank you. I appreciate you giving me a [near-back 00:22:54] into myself in that regard. I appreciate it. You know, it reminds me of, there's this parenting book and I'm forgetting the person's name right now. But it's gardeners and carpenters. You know, a carpenter sees wood and shapes it into what they want. It's a very specific project. And sometimes that's what we need to do to get results to move forward and whatnot.

And then the gardener's approach is, why is this tomato not growing? What do I need to do differently? Does this tomato just not grow here? It takes a little bit of a more collaborative and improvisational approach. So thanks for that. Thanks for having me here today.

Sara: Absolutely, Amanda. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. And thanks to you for joining us in another episode of, Can I Offer You Some Feedback? You can reach me at podcast@mod.network. We would love to hear from you on your thoughts and feedback or any other perspectives you'd like to hear from next. As always, give us a quick rating on your platform of choice and share this podcast with a friend. And I'm hoping that tomorrow you take a chance and offer some feedback when it's needed most.