Can I Offer You Some Feedback? - Episode #65

Show Notes:

This week Sara welcomes Rita who is a digital fabrication education consultant. They talk about providing feedback organizationally and in the education system. When taking the time to break down how to approach feedback alongside someone and not from above them. It’s a process that we might not get right the first time, but are in this together. Subscribe to this podcast today and so you never miss an episode! 

Episode #65: Creating Space to Provide Feedback

Sara: Welcome to Can I Offer You Some Feedback? My name is Sara, and this is the podcast for those who have a complicated relationship with feedback and are looking to hear from real people across levels and industries with their ideas, perspectives, and best practices on feedback. Before we dive in, I'd like to introduce our guest for the podcast today, Rita. She's a digital fabrication education consultant. Welcome to the conversation today.

Rita: Thanks for having me, Sara.

Sara: Absolutely. Well, let's kick things off with the main question of the podcast. When I say the phrase, can I offer you some feedback? What's your gut reaction when you hear that?

Rita: My response to that would be much like many of your other guests, and it's a little bit of fear rooted in, for me, long gone imposter syndrome, but I think it kind of still lingers sometimes.

And even though I'm confident in what I do and how I do it, and I love feedback and I love the process of feedback, I think that fear there that I did something wrong and the person talking to me may or may not know how to have that conversation with me because that's happened in the past. But I think that lingers a lot still.

Sara: Yeah. I really appreciate your touching on the other person may not know how to have the conversation with me. I may not have that context with them. We may not have that relationship. The trust may not have been established. They may not have the understanding of how best to provide it to me and so fear absolutely would come into play. I wonder when you're thinking about feedback, do you prefer to be the giver or the receiver of feedback?

Rita: I think I'm very comfortable being the giver of feedback, especially with my time being in education. I taught in high school for about 10 years, and my mode of educating has always been really intense levels of feedback. And it became something I was very comfortable with, both with my students and other teachers that I would mentor.

I felt like I could do it from a place where I am not above you or I am no more than you or can do it better than you, but always alongside someone in that working partnership type role, whether it's a student or an adult. So I think I'm more comfortable being the giver. I'm trying to learn to be the receiver without fear.

Sara: Yeah. No, I love what you're sharing about doing it alongside with that person where it's not a judgment, it's not a comparison, you're offering perspective, right? Like, here's what I'm seeing. What do you think? Which is so much more kind of alongside rather than above. I'm wondering, and you mentioned kind of a bunch of different levels, whether student, whether teacher, administration, how do you generally go about opening the conversation to give someone else that feedback?

Rita: I think in order to be able to open up that conversation, there has to be a culture of giving and accepting that feedback established first, especially with young people. So I found in teaching that at the start of the year with new students it was always that fear, that hesitancy, that fear of failure that a lot of students have. Especially as a science teacher and engineering teacher, it's something you're trying to break down constantly. That comfortableness, that comfort, that willingness to listen and work on something rather than the fear of getting it right or wrong. And that's it. Establishing that has to be there first.

Sara: And it sounds like the building of trust. I think on the outside of the education system we forget how quickly a teacher has to form that relationship with a student and you don't have that much time with them to be able to create an environment very quickly. If we think organizationally, someone's with you one, two, three years. But a student you may only have, depending on the structure of your school and the way that it works, you may only have them for a few months. You may have them nine months. You may not have them for that long. And that's like fast environment creation, you know?

Rita: Yeah. And I think with students or adults in an education setting or not, thinking about your question of how do you approach giving feedback? I think approaching it, again, alongside that person and not above them is what's really helped me. We're not all going to get this right the first time and that is not the expectation, but I'm going to work on this with you.

And then also making clear that I don't know everything either, and I am going to learn through this process. Whether it's with a student or adult, someone above me, we all have something to learn from each other. And just being transparent about that.

Sara: Yeah. How do you think about the feedback you're delivering and defining or shaping it to be meaningful feedback?

Rita: I think for me, the best method that's worked is empathizing and putting myself on the other side. So, if I was on the other side, what would help me the most now hearing this? And I can think of times that I've had mentoring free service teachers who I really just want to tell them I'm frustrated, I want to give feedback. And I put myself in their place and I go, "What would help me the most?" Because that person is also clearly, at least slightly aware that whatever we are talking about needs to be worked on. So what would help them best? I think just empathizing and being at their level with them and thinking about what I'm going to say first before I say it is the most helpful.

Sara: Yeah, which takes time to craft a message that considers the person, considers the situation, and that piece or part that is going to make the most difference. That's a lot to kind of balance and consider. So as you're sharing, I'm curious to know if people could do one thing better regarding that feedback, what would it be?

Rita: I think one thing people can do better regarding getting feedback is having the mindset of failing forward and that it's okay. And I say this from an educator perspective and a human perspective that we're not going to get everything right the first time, the second time, the third time, and that we as humans are always learning and we are always improving and it's a process and rarely anything works the first or the second or third time and that it is a feedback process.

I think personally, I don't work well in a vacuum and I do better work and that is both personally and professionally when I have other people to bounce ideas around with and to get feedback. And it's a very powerful way to grow both individually and socially and professionally.

Sara: Yeah. I think you're touching on, there's the desire for folks to be perfect the first time, but the phrase that I've heard, you know, it's not my first rodeo. Well, I don't think the second rodeo is great either. It probably takes like 10, 15, 20 times before you really get good at something. And it often happens that feedback is something that a lot of folks wait to do once a year. And of course, you're not going to be good at it. You're waiting to do it once a year, especially in a professional context, which doesn't help the comfort with it and being able to do it on a repeated basis.

You've been in different positions where either you've been in a leadership role or you have been in a position of authority, let's say in a classroom. I'm curious, we've been talking about you providing feedback or you receiving feedback. I'm wondering how do you encourage feedback amongst your team, amongst others, to share feedback within themselves?

Rita: So how do I encourage my team members to share feedback amongst ourselves? That's a good question. I think a lot of establishments, whether they are... So I think a lot of different places, a lot of departments and groups can be siloed. And even though the whole team may get together often and talk a lot, there are still these silos that exist. And often it takes someone very bold and brave to say, I'm not seeing the connections here or did I miss something?

And often some of those people will talk to each other and then we just have to go out and say it. And I've had this experience in groups where I'm wondering, am I the only one who's missing something here? And I think over the years I've broken down that fear of speaking up and just saying, I'm thinking if I'm the only one, I can't be the only one and opening up that conversation that there is not enough dialogue happening, there is not clarity, and that it's okay, but we just need to all be on the same page.

And so I think letting go of that, that fear of bringing that kind of thing up and being able to speak to your team, whether it's your superiors or someone alongside you, and saying, I need more clarity, I need a conversation. So I can grow, but also we can all just be on the same page and have the same... You know, we might have the same end goal, but how we're getting there might not be the same and asking for that clarity and being okay to ask the clarity.

Sara: Yeah. And I so appreciate that you're sharing. You can't be the only one who isn't getting it, right? It may feel that way. Everyone may be nodding along, but always, I see it in groups I work with. I see it in larger sessions. As soon as the one person, as you said, has the brave moment, that has the courage to be like, "Maybe just me, but like, what are we talking about?" Or how is this connected? Or what's the goal here? Five, ten, other people jump up and say, "Yeah, me too".

And everyone had the feeling, but no one took the step, right? But how do we create the environment where folks feel safer to do that, right? I'd rather us do that in minute 5 of the meeting, rather than in minute 55 of the meeting, or whatever kind of the structure is. We want to make sure that we're getting to it sooner, and that's about space creation so folks feel comfortable to be able to participate in that way.

Rita: I think earlier in my teaching career, some of our staff meetings we would have, they would be feedback meetings, except the person in charge at the time would give feedback that was really meant for one or two people in that room to the entire room of maybe 10, 12 people. And it really affected morale because for them that was just the comfortable way, the safe way to address one or two people. And it made the rest of us who were pretty sure we did those things and did them correctly or up to expectations, we'd feel like we did them wrong. And there was never clarity.

I look back now with just the life lessons I've learned and the trajectory I've taken and the confidence I have in my abilities, I wish I was in that room now because I would have said something right away. Or maybe pull that person aside later and say, "This is not helping me, and if this is feedback directly towards me, I would love to have that conversation with you. But if it was meant for..." And sometimes he'd say or they would say, "Oh, well, you're fine. You're fine."

It doesn't feel that way when the whole group is being addressed about that sort of thing. And so, again, being able to speak up and be brave and say, "Hi, can we have a little more clarity here a little more transparency, and if it's meant for me, let me know. If it's not meant for me, please let me know." Now, I'm comfortable doing that.

Sara: Yeah. I love that you're bringing this up. I oftentimes get asked to do a training for 50 people when only one person needs to hear the message. And it takes time to push back to that leadership and say, "Why are we doing a training for 50 people when only one of them really needs to hear the message? One of them is struggling with the material. One of them doesn't know how to do this." And they're like, "Well, we want to make sure everyone's on the same page. We want to make sure everyone's using the same language." I was like, I hear you, but you think that you're setting the standard, the folks that are already doing it are frustrated and confused and you're teaching the person who's not doing it that everyone else is struggling with this, which is not true.

Rita: Yeah.

Sara: Right? You're teaching them, oh, everyone has a problem submitting their pay card. Everyone has a problem acting civilly. Everyone has a problem not harassing people, right? Whatever the topic is. But that's not true. Right? 50 people don't have the problem. One person does. But as you're saying, it feels safer, it's more comfortable. Okay, it's fine to share the message, but if you're not doing those one on one conversations and saying like, this was for you, right? We're having this meeting because of you and we're going to need your behavior to change going forward, then it's a waste of everyone's time, right? It doesn't serve anyone in that way.

Rita: Yeah. I never really thought about it that way of it making that person who it's for think that, oh, everyone else is also doing this. But that's a strong perspective. You're very right about that.

Sara: Yeah. Because again, for that person, well, they surely wouldn't make 50 people attend this if it was just me. But 50 people are in this room right now, all learning about something that I'm not great at, but it must be other people not great at it too, right? And that's obviously the opposite effect that the organization wants. So I love that you brought that up. Well, for our last question in our time together, Rita, can I offer you some feedback?

Rita: Sure, thank you.

Sara: So one of the things that I very much appreciated, and we've had the opportunity to know each other for many, many years throughout a lot of different contexts and spaces. I have always appreciated the intense care and attention that you provide to people. One of the things I talk about often is active listening or being present in communication. When I'm in a space with you, I feel like you've got blinders on, earplugs, face towards me. Like everything is focused 1,000% on what I'm saying, what I'm sharing, what I'm communicating with.

And it challenges me to listen differently, to be present differently, to pay attention differently. And it's really something that I hope your colleagues also appreciate. I'm sure your students have seen. You are an award-winning educator. So I'm sure others have noticed it. But it's something that really pushes me to listen better, to be present better, and I've always appreciated that intensity of presence that you have and caring which you provide to conversation and being with that other person. And so, again, I know I've been very grateful for that. I've been very appreciative of that. And I hope others in whatever context they intersect with you, they get to see that as well. So, I wanted to say thank you for that.

Rita: Thank you. That was really kind of you.

Sara: Well, Rita, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. And thanks to you for joining us in another episode of Can I Offer You Some Feedback? You can reach me at podcast@mod.network. We would love to hear from you on your thoughts on feedback or any other perspectives you'd like to hear from next. As always, give us a quick rating on your platform of choice and share this podcast with a friend. And I'm hoping that tomorrow you take a chance and offer some feedback when it's needed most.