Can I Offer You Some Feedback? - Episode #90

Show Notes:

Discover how to make feedback a positive experience in the latest episode of “Can I Offer You Some Feedback?”! Featuring the insightful Otto, a fundraising and development officer for a large nonprofit and a former real estate broker owner. Otto introduces a refreshing take on delivering constructive criticism with kindness and intention. Timing is everything! Sara and guest, emphasize the importance of allowing feedback to breathe. Learn how to balance immediacy with thoughtful reflection in your feedback conversations. Subscribe for new weekly episodes!

Episode #90: Making Every Conversation Count Through the Power of Feedback

Sara: Welcome to Can I Offer You Some Feedback? My name is Sara and this is the podcast for those who have a complicated relationship with feedback and are looking to hear from real people across levels and industries with their ideas, perspectives, and best practices on feedback. Before we dive in, I'd like to introduce our guest for the podcast today, Otto. He's a fundraising and development officer for a large nonprofit and a former real estate broker/owner. Welcome to the conversation today.

Otto: Thanks for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

Sara: Absolutely. Well, let's kick things off with the main question of the podcast. When I say the phrase, can I offer you some feedback? What's your gut reaction when you hear that?

Otto: Well, it is a gut drop typically for me. Surprise, I'm a pretty intense person. So, receiving feedback for me has typically not been a positive experience, at least initially, just hearing those words, it's almost like being called to the carpet or if your parents have ever had you come in and sit on the edge of the bed, it's that feeling. It's the principal's office feeling for me.

Sara: Yeah. And I think again, most people probably have that some kind of negative association with, as you said, being called to the carpet or being called up front for it. I'm wondering, as you think about feedback, do you prefer to be someone who gives feedback or who receives feedback?

Otto: That's a great question. I would say prefer to give it. In my previous life in real estate, I was in upper management and ran a team. So giving feedback was something I had to get good at quickly. And I feel like I got pretty close to that. But receiving it has always been touchy for me.

Sara: And I'm imagining, especially in real estate, you have to do your work fast. Especially with recent market, there's no time to wait. And so the feedback also has some of that immediacy. As you think about when you've been the giver of feedback, how do you set the stage or open the conversation to give that other person the feedback?

Otto: So we're usually at high-stakes scenarios, right? So emotions are already so pent up and at a level eight or nine. So the first thing I want to do is bring it down. And I found out early, I put things through my own filter. If I can share that with you.

Sara: Yeah.

Otto: And that's, is it kind, is it helpful, and is it necessary? So asking myself those things before I offer the feedback, because not every thought needs a voice, shocking. But there are times where there was no outcome. It would just be a venting scenario or showing my disappointment wouldn't help the situation. So, I would put everything through that filter. Kind, helpful, or necessary. If not, leave it out. 

Sara: I think with helpful, and I love that you've picked those. I've had some people who when they hear the helpful, they're like, well, it's helpful to me to share it. And I'm like, that's not exactly what we were looking for with helpful!

Otto: Right.

Sara: Is it helpful to the other person? Not does it make you feel better to get it off your chest? I'm happy for you, but that's not what we're judging this on. And that can be hard. And that really removing yourself for it. You're giving this other person, is it helpful to them? And a lot of folks can't step back and see that like, oh, wait, no. It doesn't help them. It just helps me.

Otto: It's not helpful. Or to this scenario. So I would put it to the filter of, will this move us further? Is it helpful to solving this problem?

Sara: Yeah. Because it may not be. And when you have that context ahead, what is it you really want from the situation? I know you shared again that kind and helpful, are there other components that you think about meaningful feedback that makes a difference and really shows people, and could you talk a little bit about that?

Otto: Sure. Yeah. Meaningful feedback. What I've given feedback previously, or even in my current role, let's say, I tend to be considered the creative one. So folks will come to me with things and say, does this look right? Does this sound right? Would you change anything here? I give feedback how I like to receive it. So, with a gentle, soft touch. Again, going back to just my level of intensity with everything. I've already put 100% in whatever I'm doing, so what you have to say about it is more impactful than it probably should be.

So I try to mimic that by mirroring feedback that's the sandwich style. I think we're pretty all familiar with that. Saying something that I like first. So for instance, I'll say, I love the colors that you chose for the layout of this design. So I'm acknowledging first off, I'm not a jerk. I want you to know that there are things I like and you're nervous to hear what those are. 

So, I'm going to get that out of the way first and foremost. This is something I like and then offering a suggestion. Are you open to adding in some metallic components? Have you considered, or do you feel like this would align with your vision? Almost letting the receiver of the feedback taking that idea and running with it. Just giving a little bit and letting them run as opposed to me saying, add gold, add silver. Saying, does metallic fit into the... and then seeing if it clicks. And then acknowledging the vision is how I end the sandwich. So saying, I see what you're doing here and it would be fine if you set it out just how it was, but there are those couple of things I think that would make it really stand out.

Sara: I love that you talk through that. Typically when I hear about the feedback sandwich, I cringe. Because typically, and I think you're offering a very different sandwich experience. Like the classic Subway version of the sandwich is like, nice thing, hard thing, or like bad thing and then nice thing. In training land, we call this the shit sandwich, right? 

Otto: Oh yes. 

Sara: You're prepping this person for a nasty sandwich. And when you do this quite a bit, when people hear something nice, they're primed for the negative. They're primed for, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. I'm waiting for the bad things to happen. What I love about what you shared and you're offering the Pier W, Marble Room blueprint version. For those of you not in Cleveland, those are our very nice restaurants.

Otto: It's a well-seasoned sandwich. 

Sara: Yeah. You are offering a different sandwich experience. And I was thinking it is that intense softness that you were mentioning before. Because it is, yes, starting out with a nice, acknowledging the positive, but that opening is the second step of opening to say, have you considered metallic? What a soft way to go about it. It varies to style. Someone who is a little more blunt might be like, oh, that is so indirect. It doesn't tell them. And you're not prescribing it has to have metallic. It's, does it fit into your vision? 

Otto: Right.

Sara: And then ending, I've been like, I'm here for the safe word. The vision, having it go further. This is like open face, beautiful sandwich. I'm loving it right now. Usually, I'm not a fan of the sandwich, but you've reframed sandwich for me. So I'm going to ponder this one. But I think it was a really nice example of how it makes a difference to, again, deliver that in a different way.

I'm curious. I know you gave a tactical example here. I'm wondering for you, if you could talk about a time where maybe you received meaningful feedback and you either felt the delivery or you saw someone else doing it, how did you know or how did you recognize like, oh, wow, this is it?

Otto: And like you said, Sara, that shit sandwich is common. So, we are programmed to, when you sit down and I start hearing what I call teacher voice, I know, oh, here comes some constructive criticism. Here comes some feedback. I would say an example of when I've received that, I like it given to me the same way. And I'm pretty intuitive, so I can pick up on the nuances of what you're going to say and I start to prepare myself to receive it. Like, okay, I know here it comes. She doesn't like the approach or he thinks you missed the target demographic here. I start prepping myself.

I'm pretty intuitive that way. So, I'll try to beat them to the punch. Not that this is a positive thing. I'll try to beat them to their own punchline so that they don't have to get there. That's typically my M. O. And again, I don't know if that's healthy, but if I could just hurry up and gobble the sandwich down in front of them, maybe it will taste a little better.

Sara: I appreciate it. I wonder though if doing that approach opens to more critical feedback that they hadn't even thought of the thing that you thought of and they were like, yeah, I guess it was missing. And you're like, oh, that was not the thing I... But I can appreciate it. And when you're someone who's very skilled at kind of seeing where the conversation might be going, again, sometimes that backfires, right?

We don't know. We've made an assumption there's some kind of something that's happening, bias or not. But sometimes we're right and I hear you want to get to it. I want to fix it. I want to go forward. I want to not just avoid it, right? You didn't move on. It's, okay, what do we do about it? And some people are so concerned about delivering the message that they haven't really thought about, okay, what now? And I hear you really eager to get to the what now. Which is good. And not everyone does that.

Otto: That's right. I need the actionable steps. That's always my big thing. What are my next actionable steps and how soon can I start making them? It's the area I'm working on. So I'm excited to go back and listen to how other people that you've interviewed are processing this.

Sara: And I think that when we talk about feedback, again, the actionable step, I would imagine then you're filtering that back through. Is this helpful? Is it kind? And is it worth it? I can get all kinds of feedback. And there's some of it, I'm like, I've received it, I've heard it, and like, no, we're not doing that.

And then there's other times where like, I hear you and here's how I might actually implement that for me. And like, your perspective is your perspective, and here's how we're going to run with it. But I think that a lot of people, again, miss the, and then what? They haven't thought that far. And I appreciate kind of that eagerness towards it. I'm wondering when you're thinking about, I know you mentioned just now, talk about the actionable, if you had a wish, and I'm granting wishes related to feedback, what's one thing that if tomorrow everyone could do this thing regarding feedback, what would it be?

Otto: I would say if time allows, let it breathe. I've just recently gone through a demonstration of this on my own team where some folks on my team want feedback right now because they don't want things to linger and fester and boil up. Others need time to think. And so finding that middle ground of what's appropriate, right? What do they say? To respond to a business email it's 48 hours. So maybe with feedback, it's 24 if time allows for it.

So I think using that, if I could wave a magical wand to be sensitive time-wise, maybe it's not helpful or kind or necessary, and you need some time to filter through. Or maybe it'll self-correct. Maybe by tomorrow, it's a moot point. Maybe the [unintelligible 00:13:17] never came to fruition. So, I think even for myself biting my tongue for 12 to 24 hours it's usually a good idea.

Sara: That time component is real hard. Because I think, again, for your folks who want that immediacy, why do you want the immediacy? And what is it about it that, as we were saying earlier, do you want to eat the sandwich to then be done with it? Or do you want to savor it and take the time to understand, now I'm hungry, but I need to go into understanding what is it about it that I'm resisting? Or what is it about that I could apply? What is it about it that I want to take more?

I find that folks who have to give difficult feedback, they're so eager to get it out and done that they don't allow the other person to sit with it. I say, if you spent four hours hemming and hawing about how to do the thing, and four hours over like two months, but like you spent four hours, you have to give the person, I'm not saying you give them four hours, but they need time. You took time.

We were talking about a different scale of feedback. I had a friend, we were talking earlier on the podcast way back in episode... We were talking about, let's say personal training. But personal trainer, I want feedback now because it makes a difference now if my leg is the wrong way or my arm is the wrong way, I need to adjust this. And it's not personal. It's just you're doing it wrong. Or you're not doing it safely. Or you're not doing it to maximize XYZ goal.

Some people, I can't sit and think about, is my arm alignment wrong? What I need to reflect on is, why do I continue to go to this? Is there some muscle issue? Is there a joint issue? And that's something for them to reflect on. I notice you're favoring this leg over this. Let's do some assessment to see what's going on here. Have you considered going to PT? Should you go to ortho? That's a different level of like, let me correct you in the moment. And that is a deeper level of like, it's not just the feedback, it's what else is going on, which is a little bit harder to take the time to do as you're saying that time is... I get we're in a rush, but why for something?

Otto: Why? Right.

Sara: And does that really help?

Otto: Yeah. I love that example, Sara. I think with time, it's also important maybe if it is immediate, that you address it. I love when someone says, "Hey, I've got to tell you this now because there's no time to wait" or "By tomorrow we'll lose the deal." I'm also a big fan of asking, do you have space for this right now? I think we're talking about time and that people really enjoy that. They will either make it right then, but consent in general is sexy, right? We love consent. So when you say, do you have time to receive feedback right now? You're going to see immediately on their face a yes or a no. You're going to see it.

Sara: And I think that's a perfect example, at least in my experience. So in words, the sentence, can I offer you some feedback is asking for consent. However, I think traditionally when it's been used, it's I'm about to give you some feedback and I'm pretending like I'm asking for consent.

Otto: That's right.

Sara: And like that's what the harm is from. The violation of like, I don't want it or not right now. Or I don't have capacity or not like this. Again, the question structure is about can I? But it has not always been respected and I think that's what for a lot of people feels uncomfortable and as we're talking about it, like, I want the person to want to have this conversation. I want it to be consensual. We're not going there with feedback, but I think it's important. Either way, I think it's important, the question itself, but if it hasn't been, then that's where the anxiety comes from, the uncomfort and the discomfort. Because again, in the past, it may have not been. And that feels different. And that feels hard to engage with in this kind of setting.

I'm wondering, you in your role, you have a unique ability to be all over the organization, especially in your current role. Development has their hands in everything and you work with, not only folks who are giving, considering giving, past donors, current, and then also all over the organization. How do you either at this entity or your prior work, I'm wondering, how do you encourage other people to give either feedback to you, to each other? How do you enable that or help set it up for success?

Otto: That's a great question. And I recently have an opportunity that I can talk to. So there are occasions that I'm asked to do a presentation with the group that's probably not a major donor. But they're there to learn and they're interested. And to me, that's gold. If I can just have your time and attention, you're giving it to me, I respect that like I would a check.

I'll leave names out. We had a large college institution come in, and they were doing some work around a new presentation I was giving with the art that I have in my building connected to the missions that we're carrying out. And we had never done that before. It was a new thing. So in the beginning, we laid the groundwork of, you're the first person to experience this. We've never done it before, and we really need your feedback because it will help steer what we do for the next group and for the future.

So, good, bad, and different, we need to know and we're open to receiving that. I think you have to figure out a way to be very genuine when you say that you're open to receiving it. Because people can read. It's like the, please let me know if you need anything. But are you really available? I don't know. I don't think you are. Nice of you to say. And then I have to be ready to hear college students critique my new program that I have spent weeks and weeks developing. But it was so critical and so important. I will say it ended with a round of applause and ovation. It was wonderful, beautiful. But I didn't know that was going to be the case until it was over. So that was an opportunity to really receive critical feedback that would shape this program moving forward.

Sara: And I think your team took a big chance to admit that this is new, this is the first time. Most as I'm sure you can agree, most times people fake it till you make it right. They don't say this is our first time They don't say we need feedback on how to make it better. They don't say that and instead, it's, nope this is how we always do it.

Would you rather say that and have them think you're sloppy because it is your first time doing it or do you really want to have them participate in making your organization better and making your service or product or whatever the thing is like, just own that it's the first time. It's the first time you're running it with all of your expertise. You're not like day-one employees. Why not admit that you guys you're on beta test or whatever term you use? I know why, my brain knows why people don't admit it, but what an opportunity to actually get real feedback from people who know and experience it and know that you want to do better, that you want to improve, that it shouldn't feel risky, but it is a risk that a lot of folks don't want to take.

Otto: And those were notes that I took from a more seasoned speaker who was there with me. He said, "We're going to ask for their feedback." And I thought, oh gosh! 50-something college students. They're freshmen. They're angsty. They're mad. They're angry. The world is crumbling. We've failed them as millennials. So, I wasn't ready. But he led that path and I thought, wow. And they were so much more engaged, Sara, about the rest of the whole presentation because they then felt, my voice matters. What I have to give you input on, you're open to receiving and valuing, which I think made it just that much more special together.

Sara: Yeah, that's fantastic. I love that. Well, Otto, for our last question in our time together, can I offer you some feedback?

Otto: Yes, be gentle.

Sara: I hope to proceed with a soft touch and gentle approach.

Otto: Thank you.

Sara: We've kind of overlapped in a number of different ways and angles and paths. I mean, Cleveland is a big, small city in that way. One of the things that I feel, even way back to when we first met, I have felt and really appreciated and respected your ability to have, I want to say ambitious optimism of, things are going to be better. Things are possible. Things are great. I remember when you and your partner were working on the gallery and thinking of the possibilities in your real estate practice and what the possibilities and to grow the team. I mean, it went from you to like a team. Or this new opportunity that you have, your current role which you've been in a while, but what a fantastic fit to have you integrating with community and just, I mean, not aggressive in a bad way, but like an ambitious, like, we can do this.

And every time either you're a participant in a training or we're both in a meeting or I see you in an event and I'm just like, yeah. It just feels really possible. And I would imagine that that is part of the reason why we intersect in different spaces and why we happen upon each other. And I just hope that other people also see that. I know that many people that we share in common do see that, but I'm really excited for the future roles that you're going to be involved in and the future opportunities that you're going to have. And I just hope that that really aggressively ambitious energy and positivity, I hope it catches on.

And even, as we've been talking, initiatives whether they're related to things doing in your community, which are hard and challenging, like, we're going to do it better and we're going to bring it forward and it will improve and we're going to get the research. And I'm just like, yeah. Yeah, you are. Like, I want to do that. And I love that and I really hope that other folks get to see that. And it's always so energizing when I get to spend time with you or I get to be in space with you. So I wanted to say thank you. And I hope that we continue to overlap and intersect for years to come.

Otto: Oh, Sara, if all my feedback was as joyful as that, I would never be intimidated again. That is so beautiful. Thank you. Thank you.

Sara: I can call you once a month and deliver feedback and give you a monthly dose.

Otto: You know what? I will reframe using the word intense with being ambitiously optimistic. And thank you for those words.

Sara: I believe it. I believe it. Well, Otto, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. And thanks to you for joining us in another episode of Can I Offer You Some Feedback? You can reach me at podcast@mod.network. We would love to hear from you and your thoughts on feedback or any other perspectives you'd like to hear from next. As always, give us a quick rating on your platform of choice and share this podcast with a friend. And I'm hoping that tomorrow you take a chance and offer some feedback when it's needed most.